A Stroke Survivor's Comeback on the Green, Tour Member Plays 39 Tournament Rounds this Year, and Rapid Fire Rules With Roger

Speaker 2: 0:55

Welcome to the Golf Week Amateur Tour of the podcast. We are your hosts, Tim Newman and Chris Rocha. As the oldest and largest amateur golf tour in the country, we put on individual stroke play golf tournaments that are handicapped by flights in 48 markets across the country. The Golf Week Amateur Tour, where amateurs play like pros. Welcome back. And it's the official last week of the regular season.

Speaker 3: 1:45

Yeah, it's good to be back. We're finishing up both tours and gonna get ready for nationals Be able to see everybody out there. So I can't wait to get out there and see the people and meet some new listeners that we didn't get to meet last year.

Speaker 2: 2:05

Yeah, I think we're gonna do. Actually, I'm actually gonna try and do two live shows. One will be definitely the Wednesday of our tour director's dinner, and so we'll talk to tour directors and talk about some of the words, and then we're gonna try and do a live feed on Thursday at registration.

Speaker 3: 2:26

Yeah, I completely agree. I can't wait. It's gonna be fun, so this last episode of the regular season.

Speaker 2: 2:32

We've got Roger and he's gonna be doing something a bit different with us this episode. Two other guests. One guest we've had on already is kind of a surprise and we're gonna go through some of his goals and he doesn't really know why he's being brought on yet. I told him we wanted to go over some goals but he did something that nobody else did this year, so we want to kind of surprise him with that. But our first guest has a really interesting story I'm looking forward to him sharing with everybody and I hope that it inspires other people to battle through some adversity and share what golf and the tour actually means to them. And this is just one of those stories.

Speaker 3: 3:15

Yeah, when we got the email about this story, I got really inspired by it. I couldn't wait to get this guest on for us. So I don't know where this interview is gonna go, but I do know that for our listeners, it might give you that extra pep in your step or that motivation that you may be lacking right now Exactly.

Speaker 2: 3:39

So let's just go ahead and bring him in. This is Kevin Dick from the Cincinnati Tour. Kevin, thanks so much for reaching out to us and thanks for joining us tonight.

Speaker 1: 3:48

Oh, no problem, Glad to be with you guys.

Speaker 2: 3:51

So you're a member of the Cincinnati Dayton Tour and you've been on tour since 2011. Is that right?

Speaker 1: 3:57

Yeah, I started actually on the Columbus Ohio tour and but I live closer to Cincinnati and Cincinnati's tour was kind of non-existent at the time, and then I kind of went down and I've been playing on Cincinnati since probably 28, 13-ish right around there.

Speaker 2: 4:16

So, but I told you know 12, 13 years you've been on tour and you pretty much played all over the place and you played at National Championship. We actually met last year and that's good. I'm looking forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks, right.

Speaker 1: 4:29

You're gonna be there. Oh yeah, can't wait. It's a family vacation time as well, and it's a great time down there.

Speaker 3: 4:38

No, that's awesome. You know a lot of people make it a family vacation trip, so you know being able to do that and bring the whole crew down for a week is something to look forward to every year.

Speaker 2: 4:50

Kevin, you sent me an email and you know I'm gonna pass off to you and let you kind of introduce. You know what you told me about, and then we'll take you from there.

Speaker 1: 5:02

Well, as you said, I've been playing on the golf weekend tour since halfway through the 2011 season, pretty much like anybody else was just looking for some competition and found it here and kind of rest his history on that. I was bounced between champ flight and A flight. Over the years I finished second overall on the national tournament in A flight and I think it might have been. My memory is kind of affected by the stroke I had, so it's kind of sketchy, but I think it was around 2014 that year maybe and ever since then it's been my goal to win the thing and you know lots of peaks and valleys in the game mostly valleys.

Speaker 1: 5:53

But then January 1st 2020, I was just watching football, like most anybody else would be on the year's day, and I'd had a headache, like it was right on the top of my head and it felt like somebody was just like I don't know, drilling a hole just right into my head. Worst thing I've ever felt headache wise. And then I don't know it was maybe nine or 10 o'clock that night my whole right side it was like somebody flipped a switch. It just went completely numb and I kind of knew, because my father died from a stroke, so I kind of knew what was going on. I kind of kind of tried to get up out of my recliner and just hit the ground. I didn't have any way to stand on my own.

Speaker 1: 6:36

Luckily my wife heard me and she came in and she looked at me and knew right away something was wrong and she started to call the ambulance and I just told her you know the best I could talk at the time just get me to the hospital. We don't live very far from it. So she saved a lot of time. She gave me an aspirin to help send my blood a little bit and got me to the hospital and it's kind of it as far as that night went. I spent a couple of days there.

Speaker 1: 7:06

I had paralyzation on my right side but, being my age I was only 45 at the time and a lot of the doctors just kind of wrote it off in the beginning as they didn't really think that it was a stroke. I ended up funny story I had to see three different neurologists. They ended up at Cleveland Clinic up in Cleveland Ohio and they were able to look at my MRI a little closer and find the infarct that everybody else missed and I started doing all the therapies you could possibly do the physical therapy, the occupational therapy, speech therapy and then COVID kind of took over everything. It was, I think, around March yeah it was a little bit.

Speaker 1: 7:55

I was no longer allowed to go to outpatient therapy for the governor of Ohio's orders. So I kind of like leveled off and then when I was allowed to start going back, I was kind of like they told me you're not going to get any better than what you are. But through that, between January and March I'd went from no use on my right side to being able to use a cane to walk, and it was just the drive. The only thing I could think of was I want to get back to playing golf again. I'd been playing since I was like 14 years old. It was the only thing I was good at anymore, but that was my driving force. I just wanted to get back out and play and steadily have gotten stronger and gotten a little better. I spent a fortune on clubs my wife hates that because I went from playing extra sifts shafts that I had to go down like senior flex just to be able to get the ball in the air. It's been a lot of trial and error over that time frame, but the biggest thing was just that goal in mind. I want to win the national title in any flight, for that matter, but that's been kind of what's keeping me going. But I did have a setback at the end of last year. Through the whole social security disability process I had to kind of go back to work for a trial job and I went back to the company I was working at and then I fell.

Speaker 1: 9:23

I have a balance problem. I stumble a lot. It's funny when I sometimes I'll hit a shot and I'll do the Gary player walk through and that's what everybody thinks it is. But it's really me losing my balance and trying to keep from falling flat on my face, which does happen, especially when I tee the ball up. If I'm not careful, it's hard for me to bend over at the waist Because when I stand back up it's like all that rush of I don't. I guess it's rush of the blood. I'm not really sure and I've never really been able to tell me what it is. But there's something messed up in there that just makes everything start spinning like vertigo and then I just end up on the ground and then it's kind of a mess. But I think I skipped over something I was saying there. But anyway, what were you saying, tim?

Speaker 2: 10:05

Is. That is a balance issue. Is that something from the stroke, or did you have that before?

Speaker 1: 10:10

Yeah, yeah, that's, it's from the stroke. That'll always be there and kind of no matter what I do, it's just always going to be there. I've been checked for the stability issues. I've seen so many doctors in the last three years. I kid people, my health insurance has paid for more BMWs than anybody can imagine and none of them are mine Exactly.

Speaker 2: 10:39

That's the way it works, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 10:41

Yeah, it is, but I just look at it this way I could be in a wheelchair, but I'm not, and there's just that termination.

Speaker 1: 10:52

I want to get back to the top, where I kind of was at. I did have a good season last year. I won five or six times on Cincinnati's tour. But then when I had that setback at the end of the year where I fell, I hit my head and got a concussion and I had an MRI and they found that I had had a second stroke called a lacunar stroke. It's in the basal ganglia region in my brain. And then there's some other, some brain bleeding going on and some other stuff I got to kind of deal with after nationals. But they did tell me that that's probably going to lead to full blown dementia in the next five years. So I just look at it like, well, I've got five years to reach my goal, and if not, oh well, what can I do? I'm going to try.

Speaker 2: 11:42

Let's hope not.

Speaker 1: 11:43

Yeah, on a finger's crossed. It's scary. It's a scary thing. Everything I'm going through my father went through the same. It's almost mirror image of what he went through, but he was a lot older than I was when it hit me.

Speaker 2: 11:56

So what is it about the tour that really kind of gives you that drive to come back and to spate?

Speaker 1: 12:03

Just the competitive nature, the camaraderie. I've met a lot of good friends over the years, playing in tournaments and, you know, especially in Hilton, had meeting guys from all over the United States. Every year I go down and see these guys I've known and met over the years and it's, you know, like, like just sometimes it's just like yesterday, it's like seeing them. You know it's like, oh hey, how you doing. You know it's like I'm sure you guys know exactly what I'm saying and everybody listening knows.

Speaker 3: 12:30

So how's the golf game now? And I know you've been working on trying to get back to where you were. Where are we looking at now?

Speaker 1: 12:37

I think I've finished the season as a 7.1 index. I won once this year that was two tournaments ago. I had a couple, couple good chances. But there's one issue I deal with and it's it kind of sucks because I never know when it's going to happen. I'll like go to hit a shot and it's like my right side on the downswing kind of just quits and I'll hit four inches behind the ball and just hit it fat because I had don't just right now, that control. It's just weird. It's like my, my body just kind of takes over and stops. I'll shank one every now and then, you know, and it gets to be frustrating, but it but over the through all the therapy I went through, one of the things that all the therapists and neurologists have recommended was was golf. Chip and putt had go to the driving range play. It's good for your balance. I'm like, yeah, you know you don't see me falling down when I pee a ball up, but you're doing any permission, I'm gonna do it.

Speaker 3: 13:34

Yeah, I mean it's. It's interesting because you know we've talked me and Tim talked a lot about golf on here and the benefits it has, and it's interesting how a sport where, as Frustrating as it can be, it's still enjoyable, especially when you go out there outside, you know you get, you get to be with Three other, three other people that that you enjoy being with. Like you said, you know our friends, close friends, sometimes, you know, even consider family members, and that's what this tour brings is being able to see this group of guys every two to three weeks. And Well, they're in, have some fun and have some laughs after the round. And I Don't know about your all tour, but my tour always yells to every winner to move them up because they're tired of seeing them Win. So yeah, we know same thing. Yeah, a little banter of that, but I mean that's. You don't see that when you Play basketball as a team sport?

Speaker 3: 14:31

in the locker room or football or whatever it's. All this is individual sport, where you go outside and you hit the smallest thing you can see with the little stick and it can be frustrating, but at the end of the day you know it's. It's a well, a Well day off, off of work. I guess you could say yeah, that's for sure.

Speaker 1: 14:53

I know all we're at it. I do have to give a big shout out to since he's tour director Tyler Hudson. He brought me on as one of his assistants last year and that that gave me a real sense of purpose. You know to be there early, help set up, check guys in, help with rules, and you know play the event, help give out prizes, help book horses, things like that it's. That's helped me quite a bit, actually mentally.

Speaker 2: 15:18

Yeah, I mean you just Just be around the guys Means a lot. And yeah, I tell people that you that are injured, that can't play it. You know these come out and hang out or right around with me on the cart. You know, help me out when I'm doing the starter box or whatever it is because you still building that camaraderie in that and that connection which is also helps you get that drive to to to get better and get back out on the course.

Speaker 1: 15:44

Oh, Without a doubt, and some you know, I look, I look forward to every, every tournament, even if it's a course I can't stand. You know I I want to get there and see if I can, see, if I can come out on top. You know.

Speaker 2: 15:58

Well, you put. You played out a French lick a couple weeks ago and, yeah, I know Chris is probably sick of me bringing this up, but Tell us about your experience there and what the courses were like, and and and all the good stuff from oh Well, the Donald Ross was day one.

Speaker 1: 16:17

It was a. It was a scourable course. I mean, you you had to play it kind of smart and in some ways and you know there's there's some holes you could kind of go for broke. Unfortunately, I Kind of hit it into the end of the junk a few times and didn't putt very well. There I think I shot 82 or something, 83. I had like 30, 35 putts, so I didn't. I didn't figure out the greens. And then the next day Was the Pete die and just pulling into the place, it was almost like driving into heaven. Just the views everywhere it was. It was one of the most incredible places I've ever ever been to play golf. Um, that attitude changed when I started playing it there, because that was one the best way I could describe it is it was a really expensive kick in the nuts the whole day it was.

Speaker 1: 17:08

That was a hard golf course, especially if you hit it sideways, like I did a few times. I mean, you miss a fairway by three feet and you've, you've got a ball on a hanging life, you know, and it's six feet below your, your feet. You're trying to contort yourself to be able to hit it. I don't know how many times I almost fell. I just got to the point where I just had to try to chip it back out in the fairway instead of going for it. But there were some good scores shot out there for sure Not by me but by a lot of other guys. But yeah, it was. That was a mean. That was a wonderful tournament. Can't wait to go back next year. Hopefully they have it.

Speaker 2: 17:44

Yeah, I hope so too, because Chris and I are gonna go.

Speaker 3: 17:49

He wants yeah, he wants me out there, and I mean, I haven't heard any one bad thing about it. So what?

Speaker 2: 17:55

we'll have to see how the schedule works out and Kevin you guys definitely you're not the only one says but was a kick in the nuts.

Speaker 1: 18:01

So oh man, it was when I heard the guy on our tour actually ended up winning with a, with a 68 at Pete die. I'm like what I was just like I say was what I mean. I know he's good, but holy moly.

Speaker 2: 18:18

Well, we know we noticed a lot of high scores on one one the second day at the Ross course. So it wasn't just you like said there were a few good, really good, scores, but those scores were much higher at the Ross course. I mean, excuse me, at the die course as opposed to the Ross court. Yeah and so do you know which courses you're playing. National Championship right.

Speaker 1: 18:39

Oh yeah, I'm playing, see, the Golden Bear, which I've never played before, that's why the only one I haven't played down there over the years. And then the cup course over a palmetto hall it's. It's been a few years since I've played that one, but I still remember it pretty decent. I got still got yardage, books and things from there.

Speaker 2: 18:57

So I can tell you you're really gonna like the Golden Bear course. I was out there last year with the beef light and you know, I know this sounds like a broken record. Almost all these courses are my favorite courses, but Golden Bear is is really one of my favorite courses being out there.

Speaker 1: 19:11

Oh, You're gonna like it. Yeah, I'm looking forward to playing. And we had Atlantic dunes and oyster reef last year and I Played well all three days. I just got a lot of bad breaks there. You hit it on the green and it would roll off in the water and it's like how did that just happen? You know, which is weird? Because when I finished second, I shot 72 at the Atlantic dunes twice. I didn't break 80 either time. This, the last year, I don't think I can't remember exactly what I shot, but it wasn't super good. I was a finished in 83, 20, 25.

Speaker 2: 19:46

Yeah, well, so even still, I mean you're still in the top half. So you shot 83 your first round, atlantic dunes and then 79. It was to reef, and then you came back at land dunes had 82. So you know you're, you're in the top half and and this is not a knock on oyster reef, but I mean, if you can play two rounds one land dunes, that's good on you, right?

Speaker 1: 20:08

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's always the goals, the do you play the quote-unquote top course twice and you know your chances of Finishing in the money, so to speak, or a lot better, yeah. Yeah, I know, I finished me and one of my friends from from our tour, Corey him. We got into the two-man and we finished second in that. That was pretty nice. It helped that he shot 73 at oyster reef.

Speaker 3: 20:31

But I've won that thing once and Luckily, my guy was the one who won and it was one of those. I reached out to the Dallas director said hey, you know, anybody that wants to play Let me, let me know. And we got in literally the last second and you know, putting the whole thing and we won. No, actually we're gonna do a playoff. And it was like, okay, well, only one player can play the playoffs. I was like, well, you just won the tournament, so you go play the playoff and good luck, let me know how it goes.

Speaker 3: 21:05

Yeah, way to put the pressure on and I'll Ride that cocktail all day absolutely absolutely.

Speaker 2: 21:16

So, kevin, did you have any advice you know for you know for people that are listening, that are going through some struggles about you know the mentality of Of you know doing what you need to do to get back and being able to compete and play and and being around the guys.

Speaker 1: 21:34

Absolutely. First and foremost, don't ever give up, don't quit. Set goals and do whatever you can to attain them and lean on your friends and family For support. Luckily, you know, I have a great wife who she doesn't play, but she loves golf, so she understands. And this has put up with quite a bit in the last three years with me. You know one of the issues I have a kind of a short temper through all this and I can't help it. So sometimes I get a little snappy at her. But you know she, she understands, but she doesn't give me too much grief.

Speaker 1: 22:06

When I I'm going to the golf store I ain't gonna buy nothing, but then I come home with a new driver. You know I Asked for forgiveness, not permission, so Mine too. That's basically it. Yeah, just, you know, set your goals, don't ever give up. I mean, you know chances are, if you're in a situation like me, you're not gonna be the same person you were before, but you can do as much as possible to try to get as close to To what you were as as you can. So this you know right, that's what I've tried to do. I'm still we'll still a little ways off, but you know, I still believe that I. Can, you know, figure out a way to get Get back to where I Might be able to plan champ flight again one day, who knows?

Speaker 2: 22:54

But again, thanks so much for joining us. I appreciate you coming on. You know, you know, keep doing what you need to do to get better and and we'll see you in a couple weeks.

Speaker 1: 23:03

All right, appreciate it, tim. Thanks, chris.

Speaker 3: 23:06

Thank Kevin, I appreciate your story and good luck out there.

Speaker 1: 23:09

All right, thanks, but take care.

Speaker 2: 23:12

I'm really glad we got to have Kevin Dick one Really inspiring story about coming back from a stroke and still, you know, playing golf at a pretty high level and His goals to win national championship. So you know, if you're in the A flight, look out, because you know Kevin's put up some pretty good scores, especially recently, and I'm sure he's gonna be somebody to To challenge here in a couple weeks. And Hilton dead. But now we're gonna move on to a guess we had. We've had on earlier in the. In the year you actually came out and played in Atlanta one time, which was great. So let's welcome back Mr Tattoo, luke bone from Chicago. Luke, welcome bud.

Speaker 4: 23:50

Hey, thank you for having me on, tim. It's always good to visit with a friend and talk about bringing the season that we've had.

Speaker 2: 23:58

Well, yeah, I think the tours had a great season, but you know you, you've had a really productive and and good season for yourself.

Speaker 4: 24:06

Yeah, you know I was on at the beginning of the year talking about some of the goals that I had and you know I'm sure the listeners will definitely kept track of that, or sure they they stable that to their fridge. I'm sure they had. But the ones I can, the ones I can remember was playing as many events as I could on the road. Then, just you know, some personal goals on the golf course, which I'm very happy to accomplish most of those, and I'm very happy to have been in all cores of the country playing from here or there, everywhere.

Speaker 2: 24:38

Well, you know again. You may not remember this, but one of your goals was to play the most rounds on tour of anybody. You know, and one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on is because you accomplished that goal. You played 36 rounds of this year. Your first round of the year was February 5th, sun City West Championship at Fort Bella country club.

Speaker 4: 25:05

Yep, I'm the Arizona tour with Gabe mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 25:08

And so you know, you know, even I don't know, because I do you have a tour this weekend, right in Chicago.

Speaker 4: 25:15

Oh, so I know fortunately I'm gonna be able to make that because of work commitments. Okay, but I am. I'm gonna make up for that by going and playing Sunday on the Columbus tour with butch Novak.

Speaker 2: 25:25

Okay, so you'll end up with 37 events 39 actually.

Speaker 4: 25:31

We have our Chicago 2-day Next weekend as well.

Speaker 2: 25:35

Okay, 39. So there you go. So so you, you, you blew everybody away and you know I did want to, did want to tell you that when I was going back and forth with you. But congratulations, you know, you know you, you are the epitome of the tour player that we, that we like. You're playing in local events, but you're also traveling and, and you know you, 339 events, we're 39 rounds. That's, that's, that's incredible.

Speaker 4: 26:00

I Appreciate that it's it's been a long and fun season. I have in my phone, a little album in my camera roll from pictures of where I've been traveling. You know, if I went to a good restaurant, on the road or Playing partners and good friends of mine, the golf courses, pictures with tour directors. I think I take a picture with you as down there, yep in June and and it's, it's been a really awesome season and I'm really excited to get to nationals. I'm gonna be traveling with a couple of the guys from the Chicago tour and I've already told them, hey guys, just be aware, the first couple days were there. I'm gonna spend most of my time just hugging and reading people because I've seen a thousand of them this season Exactly.

Speaker 2: 26:45

So what are some of your highlights from from this year? Oh, whether it be scores or courses or people or whatever. We're even restaurants, because you know that's. But is that part of part of the whole tour experience as well? Right, I mean you go and you play golf and you go out and you have maybe have a couple drinks, have some food, so Anything yes, so I would.

Speaker 4: 27:07

I would say I've broken it down into different categories. The thing I am most proud of is obviously the most rounds played on tour. The next one is all the different local tours I've played on. I think I've played on 16 different local tours this year Okay, I might be wrong, I think it was 17, but for conversation sake will say 60. I'm very proud of that.

Speaker 4: 27:47

And the thing I'm honestly most proud of is, for example I'll give a shout out to one of the Columbus tour players, michael Coyle. He, he texted me this afternoon because he saw I was registered and he was like man, it's gonna be good to see you, gonna be good to have you down. And honestly I think that's been the best part of this entire season is the camaraderie amongst the players, right, and just how you know you get to meet different people and you get to know them. So it's like, yeah, from the golf perspective and from the tour season, golf is fantastic. You know we're, we're out there for five out five hours, hopefully a little less Competing. You know, try to win some of these tournaments on fantastic golf courses. But you know, it's really the memories and the people to me along the way that's just been wonderful.

Speaker 2: 28:31

Yeah, that that's always what it is right. So it's no matter what, it's always about the people. It doesn't really matter what we're doing, whether it's golf or something else, it's always about the people.

Speaker 4: 28:40

Definitely and and from probably the the best I won't say the best tournament, but one of my favorites of the year was definitely yours at Bears Best. I came down to 4 and June. That was a fantastic facility. You ran the tournament fantastic and and the people were also great. So it.

Speaker 4: 29:01

But that's the hard part. I've been thinking for a couple of days now like what has been my favorite comment and I can't say I haven't enjoyed one. I've enjoyed every tournament, from freezing our behinds off in Kansas with director David King in March to almost dying of heat exhaustion in Kentucky with Ed early and Andrew abuse waxing me and In July and all the little things in between. There have been too many great rounds out. Of course. I've won five times this year, which I'm very blessed to have done, and it would be, you know, stereotypical say all the holidays. You're my five favorite events this year, but that's that's not how it is. You know, when you compete with people and you Were play as much as I do, where you play as much as a lot of our other members you understand just how competitive the tour really is.

Speaker 2: 29:53

Yeah you, but it's funny, you bring up Andrew Buse. You know, you know we had him one last episode. He fired to a record 62 a couple of weeks ago, which is I mean, that's just unbelievable.

Speaker 4: 30:06

Yeah, and what I'm very thankful for and when I say very, I mean very thankful um Alex and Savakas, who I travel with. He's been with me for a good amount of events. If you look at the Chicago season standings, I was debating going down and playing that Kentucky tournaments that Andrew shot 62 in, and Alex texted me. He's like hey, I'm going up to Milwaukee this weekend, do you want to come with? I was like yeah, you know what? It's a little closer, it makes a little bit more sense and you know, while you're out there, you might take a peek at the other leaderboards from the other tours. I looked at Andrew, like eight under. I'm like oh, I am really glad I avoided that buzzsaw.

Speaker 2: 30:47

So yeah, I mean, andrew, that's an incredible score and you talk about memories. You know he's got that one. We all have them. You know, throughout the, throughout the different year, you know, is there, you know number one. I appreciate you saying what you did about bears best and the tournament that you came in came to down there. You obviously won that one, but is there another course that you played that really kind of sticks out to you?

Speaker 4: 31:16

Oh, definitely put me on the spot there with that one. There's two of them that come to mind immediately. The first one would be Cherokee Valley. The Mark Morris and the upstate tour went there in March. I played there. Actually I lost that playoff there, but that is, and if you get the chance to go over there and play Cherokee Valley, yeah, so I used to be tour director in upstate, so we played there, so I know exactly what you're talking about.

Speaker 4: 31:45

Yeah, okay, yeah, so I think that was that one, and then I'm trying to think. I am always partial. I think I should say something on the Chicago tour, but I'm so torn between a couple of hours. But my favorite in the Chicago area is Thunder Hawk. We had our first two day there and I'd like to bring one thing up real quick. Do you guys remember who I said to watch out for when I was on in January? I said to watch out for Christian Wakeford.

Speaker 2: 32:24

Okay, christian Wakeford Okay.

Speaker 4: 32:27

Who is waxing? All of us in Chicago this year. I said in January, watch out for this kid, he's going to be good, and he proved me right. So, yeah, yeah, no, the kid is an absolute stud, but he won our first two day there. Thunder Hawk yeah, it's just such a great golf course. It's a great layout and it's always a fantastic shape.

Speaker 2: 32:50

Yeah, yeah, that is a good course. But again, you know, when you look across the tour and again, maybe I'm biased very rarely do we or we want a course that's not good. It's very rare. And if we are on a course that's not good, we don't, we generally don't go back there, Right, so, 100%. So when you, when you're looking across, and I'm thinking, you know, as you, as you're talking about, you know you came down to bears best, which is one of my favorite courses in the land, and then pay, everybody says yeah, every time we hear him say that it's one of the favorite courses, but he didn't.

Speaker 2: 33:26

Land bears best is one of my favorites. Another one in Atlanta, reunion, which we don't play there anymore, is not also one of my favorites. That's primarily because they don't do Saturday tournaments because we've gotten too big, but. But there's, there's two of my favorites and I'm thinking about okay, so, as I'm building my schedule for next year, which course am I pulling off? You know, yeah, we didn't really play at any real duds. So you know, and, and you know, as I'm looking across, you know the courses you played. Now I, I obviously I don't know most of them, but some of them, yeah, that's a good course.

Speaker 4: 34:02

That's a good course, that's a good course, yeah, yeah, and look, look for a lot of people that don't know how these tournaments are run. So are directors like yourself have to have agreements in with these courses oftentimes, sometimes in the wintertime or even in the fall time. Do you know how hard it is for a tour? You know how hard it is? What's the general public? Yeah, you know I'm preaching the choir with you, but it's so hard when a golf course could be magnificent in October and you book it for May because it's the only slot they had, and, god forbid, we get some sort of weather that just nails the golf course with drought or heat or rain or cold, so it doesn't grow. That is the thing. That's order directors. I do not envy you guys having to make those decisions so far out and pray that it works out.

Speaker 2: 34:57

Yeah, and I'm not going to. I'm not going to talk about the course, but we had that this year where we had to switch venues because it wasn't in good shape. And again, I'm not talking about about a course at all. It's just that I can't have our guys paying some money, going and playing a course that's not in tournament shape and so we'll get back with them next year and I'm sure it'll be in much better shape. So it is what it is. We do our best to make sure, from our perspective, that we're one courses that are in good shape, good playable shape. And again, there's times that it's out completely out of our control. So like if we show up, you know, on a Saturday, and they punch the greens and nobody said anything to us, you know, to me I'm like why did you give me a call? And say because it's happening, because you called me to check on my numbers, right?

Speaker 4: 35:56

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 35:58

So but it's, and you know, as tour directors, you know it's our job and our responsibility. Now we've got to go and explain to the members and and it, but it is what it is. I mean, you know, we're obviously we're trying to to play on courses that are tournament quality, that guys want to play on.

Speaker 4: 36:16

Oh, a hundred percent. And there's. There's the other side of the coin too. There's a lot of golf courses that we have on tour that they do not miss. No, and you go there. It is spectacular and look I'm, I'm. I'm also going to be biased because of past success. I won last year in Columbus on not that new Albany country club, okay, and I did not play very well this year Matt Green from the Cincinnati tour. He beat the Brinks off all of us, but I think I shot 90 at that course, 90 or 90 one it was. It was a rough day, wow. And but that course it is. I've never seen a blade of grass out of place. I've played it four times now. It has been in a maculic shape every time. And that's where, as tournament directors, I'm sure butch falls asleep that night or the night before, knowing, hey, when we show up, the course is going to be fantastic.

Speaker 2: 37:11

Exactly.

Speaker 4: 37:12

Yeah, so it's the double edge sword for you guys.

Speaker 2: 37:18

And and here's a here's a question for you. So you came down to Atlanta and played Bears Best on June 3rd and played on June 4th at Belterra. Where is Belterra?

Speaker 4: 37:28

That's in Southern Indiana. It's actually near my hometown of Madison.

Speaker 2: 37:32

Okay, so you played Atlanta. You hopped on plane. Or would you drive? Were you driving I?

Speaker 4: 37:38

drove.

Speaker 2: 37:40

How far was that?

Speaker 4: 37:42

It was about six hours.

Speaker 2: 37:43

Okay, so that's actually not too bad. Then I mean, you know, we I guess we were probably done like four, three, four o'clock.

Speaker 4: 37:51

I got out of there at like three, 15. I got out of there like considerably earlier than I thought I would, cause I got. I got back, as I say with family when I'm down there. I got back at about nine 30 that night.

Speaker 2: 38:04

Yeah, so that you know that that sounds about right. So you, you, you, you jump on, you drive to Atlanta, you play 18, you jump in a car, you drive to Indiana and you play 18 up there. I mean that, that to me is that's dedication.

Speaker 4: 38:22

Oh, a hundred percent Now. Now you are leaving out the very best.

Speaker 2: 38:27

I'm not talking about the score.

Speaker 4: 38:28

No, no, no. I would like you to read for the listeners the two scores that I had back to back.

Speaker 2: 38:35

Okay, Sir. So when on June 3rd at at Bears Best, she shot 75, which is no lie. 75 is a good score at Bears Best.

Speaker 4: 38:45

Yeah, Cause it was rated like 76 from the tips. I mean it's far.

Speaker 2: 38:49

I put template, template players back on that, you know for a reason.

Speaker 4: 38:53

Yeah, I know we were seeing you off from the neighbor's kitchen on some of the holes.

Speaker 2: 38:58

And then on June 4th at Belterra you shot 91.

Speaker 4: 39:03

And that there is the absolute beauty of tournament golf. That is what makes it so much damn fun, because on the way that I love Belterra, I've played it a ton on the on the way back I think of myself and feel good. I just won. I just drove to Atlanta. I had not been in the field 24 hours beforehand. You squeezed me in last minute. I won the tournament. I'm feeling great. I wake up the next morning. I remember the morning very well. I mean, for Southern Indiana in June. It was actually very nice. It was like sixties in the morning. I got up, I got breakfast, I got a nice tea, I went to the gym, got to the course, warmed up, ate a little lunch, hung out with some friends caught up. I'm feeling great. Right down the range, every putt on the putting green is great, and four and a half hours later I'm wondering how much I can get on eBay for my clubs. And that is that. That is the absolute beauty of tournament golf. That's it, though.

Speaker 2: 40:08

And that's that's your. That was your highest score all year 91.

Speaker 4: 40:11

Yeah, that tracks I was. I was yo-yoing during that time. If you look at it, I think I would 75, 90, 75, 91.

Speaker 2: 40:21

Yeah, he said 90 and you know you see it again 90, 75, 91, 75, 76. Let's put it this way there's there's not a golfer in the world that doesn't have those types of scores. It doesn't matter what you're in, what your handicap is, you can have really good scores. And then you're going to, you know you're going to have bad scores and it just just happens.

Speaker 4: 40:59

Oh yeah, I mean, it's the nature of the game as well.

Speaker 2: 41:03

When you play. You could do that without even driving the six hours right, so we can add two days. You could have had two days Bears best shot, so I've. And then just the wheels come off in a second it happens.

Speaker 4: 41:13

It is, and the thing is to, just on the science of the game, a driver swung at 100 miles an hour. One degree of face angle is 30 yards.

Speaker 2: 41:25

Crazy.

Speaker 4: 41:26

So that that is a lot when we're playing from 7000 yard golf courses. Those are big ballparks and you cannot afford to be off 30 yards. They can't afford to be off five on some of them, right, yeah, it just shows. It just shows how fickle and how great the game is and it is all about just taking it on the trend and just saying, all right, well, you know what, today sucked, we got.

Speaker 2: 41:48

Tomorrow, let's move on, take your medicine and hopefully get a skin. Then have a beer.

Speaker 4: 41:57

Yeah, yeah, have a skin. I think I play, I think about Tara why I shot that 91. I play with Joe Goldschmidt from Cincinnati and Andrew Buse from Kentucky, and when the wheels started to fall off, I don't, I didn't give up on the golf, but I did start cracking a few more jokes and at one point Andrew had to put his hand over his face because he's like I forgot how much fun it is to play with you, with your, with your cracking jokes like that. And that's where it's important to really understand that the the bad comes with the good, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 42:31

Absolutely.

Speaker 4: 42:33

Well, yeah, no, it's a great, it's a great tour, it's a great time and it is so much fun competing. That's probably the thing I'll say the rest of the season.

Speaker 2: 42:42

Now I was hoping for a tattoo number two from you. I'm not saying it's out of the realm, but I mean you got some work to do. You taking Christian to the tattoo parlor, or or, or you just having the tattoo artists right there at the course.

Speaker 4: 43:01

So he might be in trouble because after um they it was Bloomingdale on our tour, one one of them that he won. I said to him I said, are we going to get tattoos after the season? And he said absolutely, so long, here is the. The first answer was yes, uh-huh, and you're stuck to it. Then, as far as I'm, yeah, he's absolutely stuck to it. And look, look, I will say this I could not be more proud of the way Christian has played this year, the way he has conducted himself, the way he has carried the scores and the um, just the courses that we've played. He has been a stud from the moment we said go, and it has been. It's been fun to watch.

Speaker 2: 43:48

Well, he's only. He's only a point two handicap. He can't be that good.

Speaker 4: 43:53

He's 18. He's, he's 18. Crazy my left leg weighs more than he does. Oh my goodness, If this kid bulks up in the gym, that's off season and in college he's gonna be hitting the ball. Four oh five, consistently off the tee.

Speaker 2: 44:12

Oh, good for him.

Speaker 4: 44:13

Yeah, no, it's fun to watch. Actually, I'll tell. I'll tell a fun story about it real quick. Um, I think it was at Arrowhead earlier this year. Uh, I, we were on the first hole. He hit it long to the green. Uh, I was a little short, or actually I think I just had sideways the entire hole and he was long in the green and of course he chipped in much on the first hole. It's like all right, well, christian's back on on his whatever. And then we traded some birdies the rest of the way on the front. I think I had two, two more on the way in. I was at one under, he was at one under, a couple other people were.

Speaker 4: 44:54

We were on this par-five and I thought to myself he didn't hit the best drive and I hit my layup in a pretty good spot. I'm feeling confident. Yeah, I'm like okay, I got 80 yards. I can get up and down from this. This is in my wheelhouse, you know? You know what? What the little punk did? He has three iron to two feet. Oh, like, all right, well, that's just disrespectful. I thought we were have a fun back nine battle. And then he just goes out there and starts popping balls next to the hole from 228. How do you beat that? I mean seriously, you did you, don't? You just watching and go, hey, that is, that is fun to watch. Because, no, if you truly love the game, you truly appreciate the game, you can't appreciate Good golf, even if you're the one who is on the other end of the business, absolutely, absolutely man.

Speaker 4: 45:47

Yeah, yeah. He like I said like hey, I told everyone in January watch out for this kid. He's gonna have a great year and I'm terrified for next year. I've hoping. I'm hoping the weight of the new tattoo we're gonna force him to get really, really brings it back to us Just a little bit.

Speaker 2: 46:03

Well, the only other thing I got to say on this is your tour director, david Bush. He's in third place in the point standings was a three-point three handicap. What do we need to do to convince him that he needs to go back to day flight where he can actually, you know, have a chance at the competing I look at, I love David, I do and he and he's a good golfer and I know how hard it is to play golf and run these tournaments. But when he bumped himself up to champ flight to take one for the team, I thought it was just like for a little while I didn't know he's gonna stay up there.

Speaker 4: 46:42

Yeah, no, no, I thought it was you know to. To quote the fantastic movie dodgeball. That's a bold strategy, kyle. Let's see if it pays off. Yeah, like you know, here's the thing too, and this is what's funny. I played with David a couple of times this year in our events and he has not been as far off as his stores. Look, I think, at one of the tournaments we were done, signing the card. I'm like, how did you shoot 80? Whatever? And he's like dude, I don't even know. Like it don't know, david. David isn't very good player and and I'm gonna grab your Thank you he keeps telling me that he's gonna come get me in second place. I'm like dude, you're, you know what is he?

Speaker 2: 47:22

He's about 900 behind, always yeah he's 900 behind.

Speaker 4: 47:25

I'm like, okay, mathematically I'm not gonna play. I'm not gonna play Saturday and Grand Slo, but I'm gonna get points for Cordabella in Arizona in January. I'm like I'm getting points for that. I'm just gonna show up at our last tournament, right, and here's like this he says only is like, oh, it's pretty. How do I say it's like that's pretty clever. To the guy who approves the final points. Or you know, I'm sorry that was. That was Brad Rizak who said that I'm like, if David could respect the points that, I don't know, I don't know if you would still be in chamflet.

Speaker 2: 48:05

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 48:07

Is. He has that ball world dropping down to D slide and we're gonna go play some of the forward teams. Well, you know what?

Speaker 2: 48:13

I Again David is a good golf, yes, but I tell, I, tell people me, I can double bogey from anywhere on the course. We could drop, we could drop a drop ball right on the fringe and I can find a way to double bogey.

Speaker 4: 48:26

So you know, it doesn't really matter where I, where I play, that's, that's the thing I I I'm always surprised by Two word directors who play the up white Like they're right on the cost and play the off-white like David in the Champlain, like, come on, there is so much going on.

Speaker 2: 48:46

Well, I would do. I mean, honestly, when I was I don't play very much anymore, but when I was playing I would always play in in the, in the fight above, where I should play, because I I mean, here's, here's just just me. Yeah, I want to win it, but I Don't feel right Winning and taking money from you and then everybody look at you Okay, this is really how it's gonna work. You understand what I'm saying? With, with the perception.

Speaker 4: 49:14

Oh, I, a hundred was. I do that. Work in the station. Politics, yeah, I understand that, but no, look, if there's the term a drug here picked up wine every two or three years, the local guys up here, we'd love it. We have probably mob, we're totally mob, david on the 18th green with champagne, and then we probably not get asked to come back the next year, see, but we would still probably do it, right, yeah, no, no, I mean, look, look the things that the tour directors, you guys, have to go through to put these things on, because it's such a thankless job and there are so many millions of little headaches that go on. I'm honestly impress when any tournament directors played the day of their tournaments.

Speaker 2: 49:54

Well, you know it, a lot of them do, and I used to and I hope to next year, but that's but you know again, that's part of it for us is is Not only running tournament but being out there with you all, with the guys I mean, and having fun, and that that's a big part of it. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 50:15

You know I'll drop a one last thing I'll say about David, which just can't speaks to his character and how great of a guy he is.

Speaker 4: 50:23

At our last tournament before rabbit slow, the Clubhouse decided to close early on us. I'm not gonna name which course that was, but they decided close before we were done so no one could get a drink or anything to eat. Well, we found this little dive bar down the street and I think probably about 12 of us went and they had pooled a, they had pool tables and we we got to having some vibrations and we shop pool for probably close to four or five hours, and I was just speaking to the character of David. At the end of the night we were all you know like hey, let's figure out what the tab is so we can all split it, because you know that's what you do, right. And they was like, no, let me take care of it for you guys, which was just an all-class move, right, be doing that. And then you know, really Appreciating his players I can't say enough about that was a great move.

Speaker 2: 51:18

Yeah, he's a great guy, great tour director, and I'm glad that he's. He's gotten Chicago back to to where it really needs to be, so that's good. But when you see him, give him my best, and I know They've got a little one coming real soon. I'm excited for him. You know the the this is a long time coming for them and I'm very, very happy for him. So send him my best.

Speaker 4: 51:44

Oh, absolutely, and and I'm already looking forward to helping you fill out college applications for girls golf scholarships.

Speaker 2: 51:52

Yeah, yeah, I know he's gonna say you know, give it a couple years, but those years five by quicker than anybody knows.

Speaker 4: 52:01

Oh yeah, no, no, trust me, we already know that David has been looking at Todd junior clubs and all of that. No, he's already got the plan now to get her out on the course, and Emily's probably shaking her head.

Speaker 2: 52:13

You know I'm never gonna get rid of this golf stuff, am I? No, no no chance.

Speaker 4: 52:17

Sorry, all right, but will you take?

Speaker 2: 52:18

care of yourself. Thanks so much for joining us and I'm looking forward to seeing you here in a couple weeks and help that. Oh yeah, absolutely. It's gonna be a great time.

Speaker 4: 52:24

I look forward to seeing you and Chris. All right, but take care, oh, before we go, chris did one. Yes, tell you.

Speaker 2: 52:30

That he's pissed because you didn't come to help. You went all over the country. We didn't go to El Paso, so you're gonna have to deal with him when you see him though.

Speaker 4: 52:40

Hey, you know what? That is more than fine. I will tell him in person that if he has a two-day in January, I will hold out on any other tournaments and I will make his the first one I play next year.

Speaker 2: 52:52

Chris, you, you heard that, so make it happen. I will absolutely throw that, throw that circulation down, I will not play it.

Speaker 4: 53:00

I will make sure that that is the first thing I do. All right, buddy, you take care of it. We'll see you soon, we'll see you saying Really was great talking to Luke. Again he did come out to the land and play with us.

Speaker 2: 53:15

He's as much fun in person as he is hero, you know. Listen to him talk and looking forward to seeing him come back and play in the Afterchamber chip here in a couple weeks. But now it's time for Our regular guest, roger, with with Roger's rules. Roger, welcome back bud.

Speaker 5: 53:32

Thank you very much, chris. Uh, yeah, chris, tim. Oh thank you, looking forward to another great session.

Speaker 2: 53:40

Yeah, so how's your golf been going?

Speaker 5: 53:43

well, you know, like most I wish I could say it was going better, but I played another senior event today and I just seemed to be in this 80s slump like I just can't get. Though. You know, every time I go out I think today's the day I'm gonna break through, and again I kept it in the 80s, but it wasn't nearly enough. I think the winner in my flight, the b-flight, shot 79. It was a nice round and I was again in the you know mid, mid 80s again, so Didn't come through. I was one shot off the lead through six holes and then Basically took me four strokes to go 20 yards in some deep rough. So you know how that is. That was on a par three and that basically you get a triple there and it Messed up my round. So I wasn't too happy about that. It is what it is and I had a great day. It was a beautiful day here. So we had a nice partners and we had a good time.

Speaker 5: 54:38

And the guy one of the guys I was playing with, he was actually in a flight. There was three b-fliders in a flight. He ended winning after a four hole playoff. Wow, so that was nice, yeah. And then the C? C flight also had a three or four hole playoff Two guys that I know. So that was fun. I, I helped out. I just, you know I right when they have playoffs I usually ride around just as like a extra body, make sure everything's going smooth. So that's what I did with those guys today.

Speaker 2: 55:06

That's awesome yeah that's awesome, yeah, and you know I really do like when there are playoffs, because it it really does give players, you know that that pressure type of type of feeling that you know Every shot really really does count from from this point forward.

Speaker 5: 55:23

Heck, yeah, yeah, yeah and uh, both three. There's a Great, great finishing. It's one of the best in the area great finishing hole. You drive it out. And then the green uh, the whole back of the green is surrounded by water and there's a bunker in front, so you really got to place a nice shot, because the green is not very big either. Um and they, they played 18 and 1, 18 and 1 or few times, but they finished up both. Both playoff finished up on 18, the tough hole, and it was really nice to watch and we had a nice little crowd watching both groups too. So it was a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:59

All right, so let's let's talk about some rules and we're gonna do something a little bit different this time and I'll go ahead and I'll read you some scenarios or some questions, and kind of like a rapid fire type situation. How's that sound?

Speaker 5: 56:10

Sounds great, let's shoot them off.

Speaker 2: 56:13

All right, so here we go. So so here's first one. Chris sees tim about to breach a rule, but he doesn't say anything. Because? Because that would be giving advice, is that correct?

Speaker 5: 56:24

Not correct. Giving information to other players on the rules does not count as advice. It's deemed as public information. And I'll just give a couple examples on this. I think the most times we see this, somebody tees up in front of the t-box. You should really let them know that you know you're ahead. Don't wait till afterwards and give them a penalty. Also, it's not, you know, not great, that's not going to start your round off. Good if you do that. And another one is, um, you know, a new. We have a lot of new players on tour and they might not know the rules, and it's no problem giving those new players advice or not. Yeah, sorry, giving those players the the rules. There we go.

Speaker 5: 57:03

There we go started it off already.

Speaker 3: 57:05

Yeah.

Speaker 5: 57:05

Yeah, so no, no problem, it's public information and and rules are a good thing to pass on to the other guy, yep.

Speaker 2: 57:12

Okay, so next one. The difference in relief options for red and yellow penalty areas is that red penalty areas offer the additional option of two club length lateral relief, but both offer back on the line relief and stroke and distance relief.

Speaker 5: 57:27

And that is correct. And I think a lot of folks don't realize that back on the line relief is available for both red and yellow Uh uh penalty areas and that's, you know, big a good option to have that you can use back on the line relief in both cases.

Speaker 2: 57:47

Next, when the rules refers to stroke and distance relief, what that means is adding the penalty stroke and taking a drop on the line of flight. The ball took as far back a distance along that line as the player would like.

Speaker 5: 58:02

No, that's incorrect. That line of flight of the ball has nothing to do with the rules. Really, it's back on the line. Relief, and I like to describe this as tie a string around the bottom of the cup or the flag stick, pull it back to where your ball entered the penalty area, and a line straight back, going back as far as you like, has nothing to do with the line of the flight that your ball took Right. So that's stroke and distance relief and the distance is not the distance that your ball took off from your shot, it's the distance back on the line.

Speaker 2: 58:43

And that is a good one to know, because we come up with that one a lot actually.

Speaker 5: 58:48

Yes, yeah, probably every round. Somebody asked me about that yeah.

Speaker 2: 58:53

Yeah. So Tim hits his ball out of bounds over a fence and says he'll take a drop where it crossed over the boundary fence and add a penalty stroke. Chris believes the only way to proceed for a ball lost or out of bounds outside of a penalty area is stroke and distance. Can Chris proceed with by hitting by the fence?

Speaker 5: 59:13

No, he cannot. It's when your ball is lost outside of penalty area. Your only option and for all of these we're excluding any local rules or stuff like that your only option for a ball lost out of bounds, lost over a fence, is stroke and distance, which means you just go back and play from where you originally played. If that happens to be on a tee box, you get to tee it up again. If it's in the fairway, you drop it where you estimate the ball had been, and if you're not exactly sure, you estimate it with the help of your playing partners.

Speaker 2: 59:48

Yeah, this is an interesting topic because I don't know if you saw, last week, you know, sahith Tagala won the one tournament I can't remember the name of it, but in either the first or second round he hit a ball that was almost out of bounds. So it was one of the out of bounds line, which was a fence line, but the fence line had posts, so the ball was sitting actually in between the posts but not completely across the line, so it was still considered in bounds and he took a stance that was out of bounds and hit the ball through the fence post back into play and I think maybe bogey or double bogey, bogey, the whole, but it was to me it was interesting that they allowed him to take the stance outside of it, completely out of bounds, right, hit the ball that was still in bounds. But you know, kind of on that line that most people would understand If it's, if there's part of the ball that's over the line that's out of bounds, but it has to be the entire ball has to be over that line.

Speaker 5: 1:00:57

Yeah, there's, you're allowed to stand out of bounds to hit a ball. That's considered in bounds. Yep, yeah, and that was actually when they used to have a decisions book that was in there as well. And yeah, you could hit. You could hit against something, and if that was the case, but you're standing out of bounds, that's okay.

Speaker 2: 1:01:13

Yep, yep, and it's also I mean in this situation that to me that that was his best option.

Speaker 5: 1:01:20

Oh, right, you know as well.

Speaker 2: 1:01:22

So I mean that.

Speaker 5: 1:01:24

Yeah, yeah, I didn't see it. It sounds like a good. I'll have to look. Look that one up.

Speaker 2: 1:01:28

Yep, all right. So the next one, tim, is taking relief from his ball in rough next to the fairway. His ball, when dropped, must stay in the rough or at least in a similar condition, since his ball was in the rough originally.

Speaker 5: 1:01:40

Nope, the rules do not distinguish between rough and fairway, so sometimes you get a good decision on that, sometimes you get a bad condition on that, but as long as you're within the relief area, you could be dropping in the fairway as opposed to dropping in the rough. Sometimes the opposite is going to happen, where you're not guaranteed in the rules of golf to always have a good lie and you know we've seen that many times where you might have to drop off of a car path and it might just be you don't want to hit off that car path but right next to the car path is rough or maybe it's bare soil, something like that. You're not guaranteed a good lie all the time. But nope, you can drop in the fairway if that's in the penalty in the relief area.

Speaker 2: 1:02:28

Now let's just say that we have a local rule. Let's say we're playing lift clean in place, but the ball you've got to keep the ball in the same condition. That's something that's allowed, although.

Speaker 5: 1:02:39

Right If you have it as a local rule.

Speaker 2: 1:02:42

But it has to be a local rule for that to be in.

Speaker 5: 1:02:45

Yeah, yeah, and it's funny, you just mentioned lift clean. So the tournament today I was in, just to mention this. So I was playing with a gentleman and we did have a club length lift clean in place. So his ball came down and it created a big abnormal, like the turf was raised up and we don't know if it was from where his ball hit and then it spun back. So that raised turf was in his line of play and he just went up automatically and started tamping that turf down and I was like, oh wait, a second. You know, he didn't know you couldn't do that.

Speaker 5: 1:03:29

But the thing was we were playing lift clean in place within a club length anyway. So where he was going to place the ball was basically a club length away from where he tapped it down. So under normal rules, yeah, you would get a penalty for doing that. But we talked it over and talked with the tour director and since it was lift clean in place, the local rules in place, we did not penalize them for that. Whether that's right or wrong, it's you know again, we're not the PGA tour, but normally just keep that in mind. If it's on your line of play, you can't improve imperfections of the turf, right.

Speaker 2: 1:04:08

But I think what you all did was fair. I mean, if it's well, if I could be there anyway, it's not really Right, yeah, okay, next one. I like this one. Free relief is granted within the rules for a dangerous condition, such as when a ball is near a snake. Or let's say, in Hilton head and alligator Chris's ball is in such a position between some routes that it would be dangerous for him to take his swing, because if he could break his club or even his wrist and claims he ought to be granted free relief for this dangerous condition as well. Does Chris get free relief?

Speaker 5: 1:04:43

He does not. That rule about dangerous conditions is specifically for animal things like that animal snakes, beehives. It's a specific rule in the book and even though it's a dangerous for the player that he could hit that route, he shouldn't hit the ball there. Basically, you have to play the ball as it lies One of the tenants of golf, exactly so he could take an unplayable. He can, you know, whatever he decides to do, try to play it easily. But no, that he did not get free relief.

Speaker 2: 1:05:17

We see that all the time, and if you hit the ball offline in Hilton head, you're going to cross this fairly often, that's for sure.

Speaker 5: 1:05:25

Oh yeah, that's true. See him all the time down there.

Speaker 2: 1:05:29

We all should know that if a player is attempting to play his ball, takes a stroke and completely misses, that stroke still counts. In a similar situation, though, what if Chris takes a practice swing at his ball in the fairway and he accidentally hits his ball with that practice stroke? Does that stroke count?

Speaker 5: 1:05:46

So the stroke does not count, but he's not off the hook. He still gets a penalty stroke for moving his ball in play and you have to replace the ball. Now, keep in mind, this is in the fairway. Remember we talked about the putting green. If you accidentally move your ball in the putting green, but this specific question here, it said his ball was in the fairway and he took that stroke. So the practice stroke didn't intend, had no intention to hit that ball, so the stroke doesn't count, but he still gets penalized for moving his ball in play.

Speaker 2: 1:06:19

So why is there that difference? Is it because that maybe the ball has been marked when the putting green, you know, is actually where to put it? Or why is that distinction?

Speaker 5: 1:06:30

So it used to be. Prior to the rules change, it was a penalty on the putting green as well. It's just recently that they changed that rule so that now it's not a penalty on the putting green itself. I guess so many things happen on a putting green. This is kind of funny.

Speaker 5: 1:06:47

I kicked my ball on the putting green today and I was afraid that the guys that I was playing with didn't know the new rule and I asked them are you guys? And they actually did. They did know of it. So two of the three did at least. So yeah, I didn't get penalized for that, but I literally I must have kicked it 20 feet too. I was walking by and I might foot hit it and back down the hill. It went so but you know you could drop your club on it, you know you drop your marker and the ball might move, all things like that. So those kind of you know. I suppose those things could happen in the fairway too. But they just the governing bodies decided that moving it accidentally on the putting green, they're going to change that. So no penalty.

Speaker 2: 1:07:30

So next, chris plays a provisional ball. After hitting his first ball into the woods, it stripes the provisional ball right down the fairway. Chris then heads to it without even attempting to look for the original. Tim tells Chris to hold on and tells Chris he has to look for the original ball for playing the provisional. He even bets Chris a beer that he's right. Who's buying the beer?

Speaker 5: 1:07:52

No right, sorry there, tim, you're going to. You're going to owe Chris a beer. A player does not have to look for his provisional. You can go right to the provisional and if you play that provisional past the spot where you think your original ball was, that becomes the ball in play and we'll just throw in there. Of course he does have to go try to identify a ball if another player goes to look for that ball, but there's nothing that says a player has to go look for his provisional ball. And I think about, like when that ball is deep in the woods you might not want to even try to go look for that ball, especially if you've hit a nice provisional in play, right?

Speaker 2: 1:08:33

Regarding the 14 club rule, you are not allowed to carry more than one driver or one putter in your bag. It's okay to have multiple wedges irons, but additional drivers or putters are forbidden.

Speaker 5: 1:08:44

And believe it or not. I was asked that recently and that's false. You could have 13 drivers and a putter if that's what you wanted. You can have as many of the same clubs in your bag as you like, as long as you don't exceed the 14 club rule limit. So lots of guys have lots of wedges are the biggest example. I haven't seen too many guys with more than one driver in their bag, but you never know and it's totally legal.

Speaker 2: 1:09:11

I have seen a guy carry three different putters.

Speaker 5: 1:09:14

Oh, wow.

Speaker 2: 1:09:15

Yeah, I mean whatever you got to do.

Speaker 5: 1:09:21

Right Yep.

Speaker 2: 1:09:22

So All right. So Chrissie's Tim removing leaves, sticks and stones from a bunker. Chris knows this can be done out in other parts of the course but tells Tim that's not allowed. Is Chris correct?

Speaker 5: 1:09:35

Chris, I'm sorry, you're going to owe him another beer. No wait, chris, chris, you owed him a beer. Now they changed this rule a couple of years ago so you can remove loose impediments in a bunker now Loose impediments including sticks, stones, leaves, all that kind of stuff. We had an interesting situation today. We had a ball and I don't know how this ball went into a bunker and it got so buried. It was completely buried. Nobody could. We did not see where it was at all. I mean, it was deep like a couple inches into the sand and we just started and it was within a couple of minutes. We one guy just started probing with his club and the ball. We found it and it was a miracle that we found it. To be honest, we had no idea and we just happened to be looking on the lift and we found that ball because we were also playing rake and place in the bunkers today. But I just wanted to bring that up because if that ever happens, where your ball is plugged I don't think we've ever covered this You're allowed to uncover enough sand so that you can just see the top of the ball, even if your ball was like three inches below the below the sand and you couldn't see it at all.

Speaker 5: 1:10:54

You are in the rules. You are allowed to remove enough sand that you can see the top of the ball and play it from there. And of course we're playing on tour. Right now it's still on our tour, our local rule, where we can lift, lift, clean and rake and place the ball. But if you're ever in that situation, you don't have to try to recreate it by putting it back under the sand. You are allowed to at least remove enough sand so that you can see the top of the ball and hit it. And it came up today. So and that's the first time this year that had happened in a tournament that I played in, so I just thought it was pretty interesting.

Speaker 2: 1:11:31

Wow, yeah, yeah, I've not seen a ball that, that that foreign, that you can't actually see. See the ball, yeah.

Speaker 5: 1:11:41

The sand was real soft in this bunker. They had redone some of their and it was really that real nice soft sand. And we knew the ball was in there, with three of us hitting the same bunker, believe it or not. And then we walked up and like where is that third ball? And one guy happened to see where it had gone in or he thought he did and just within it, like I said, within a minute or two he was able to scoop it out of there and then we basically recreated where it was, but he was able to hit from there. So it was an interesting.

Speaker 5: 1:12:11

Another interesting one that came up today yeah, it's not so, yeah, so well, rodgers. So those are some some good ones that I think always come up pretty much very often when we're playing out here on tour, and especially some of the ones with stroke and distance and whether a player can give advice. I've seen guys like hold back and I say wait a second, you, you, I want to tell you something before you do this. The only thing I want to say about that is you just have to be careful. Like if you're in a penalty area. You can tell the person what their options are, but just be careful not to say and I think the best thing for you to do would to take stroke and distance, because then you get to do XYZ you just gives him what the, what the rule allows you to do, without guiding him to what stroke he should play. That's the key on that one.

Speaker 2: 1:13:08

Right. Sometimes it's hard to do because you, you know you, you watch them do do something and play it from place. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense and you know you, you want to say, you want to say to take it back further.

Speaker 5: 1:13:24

Right, right, you just want to say something, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:13:27

But you got to let them and you got to let them do what they're going to do. Yeah, a lot of times, I think, when guys do do that, is that they're so frustrated and they just they're too frustrated to think it through. They just want to give it yeah.

Speaker 5: 1:13:41

You know you act too fast or, yeah, you don't want to. Yeah, think it through. I was going to mention one other that happened today. So this 18th hall where the playoffs were, it was water behind the hall and it had a bulkhead and this bulkhead they it's an integral part of the course. I don't know if you've heard that term. It wasn't considered an immovable obstruction. His ball was right next to it and he thought, well, maybe he can. I mean, this player knew that it was integral part of the course and when you hear that term, that just basically means you're not getting free relief from that. Even though it's a bulkhead, a big six inch wide piece of wood going down 20 feet, it's not allowed to get relief from it. If it's, if it's noted as a integral part of the course.

Speaker 2: 1:14:30

And you're just out of luck.

Speaker 5: 1:14:31

And yeah, you're basically out of luck.

Speaker 2: 1:14:33

You're from there or where you take your drop and your belly's right yeah.

Speaker 5: 1:14:38

Exactly, yep. So, uh, I know that we went through these kind of fast, but, uh, anybody's listening and you know, maybe they could send, send in a question if they uh, if we went through it too fast or something like that, but these are good ones that come up pretty often. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:14:55

So are you coming to a national championship?

Speaker 5: 1:14:58

I am, I was. I got my invite, but I'm undecided right now. I have not, I've not hit the button yet, but uh doesn't mean I won't be there, but I I hope to be there. What I will? Let you know that one way or the other.

Speaker 2: 1:15:11

Yeah, I do hope to see you and if you are there, I'm I'm thinking that I may do a live um feed from Red Passion on Thursday. So if you are there, please stop in and and maybe we'll get you on for just a quick second.

Speaker 5: 1:15:26

We'll do yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:15:28

Well, I do appreciate everything that you've done for us this year and, uh sure, with national championship coming up and um, we'll probably have you back on, maybe in December, right before the season starts.

Speaker 5: 1:15:39

Okay, that sounds great. I really, I really enjoyed it and I really do, you know. You know I like this stuff and, um, I haven't played a whole lot of golf because I have, you know, I bike a ride. I'm doing a benefit this month for cancer research and so I I haven't played as much this year as I would have liked to, but hopefully I'll get out even more next year.

Speaker 2: 1:15:58

Let's hope so.

Speaker 5: 1:16:00

And and again.

Speaker 2: 1:16:00

I can't wait to talk about it. I'll talk to you in uh in December.

Speaker 5: 1:16:04

Yeah, sounds good. All right, thank you both. And, uh, thank thank Chris for me too. I will, okay, thanks, all right, you take care.

Speaker 2: 1:16:13

As always, it's great to have Roger on and he gives us really good advice and hopefully you all, as members are are taking note and and using some of the uh information that Roger has has given us all year. I can't wait to get him back one in uh December, yeah, but we're heading into the final rigor season uh weekend of the year and there's still some tours out there this coming weekend. That has some tournaments like uh. Uh, south Florida has a tournament, charleston South Carolina. Chicago has their final two day. Uh, california's got a tournament at Oak Quarry golf club, jacksonville has a tournament and Minneapolis St Paul, they've got their season finale at the wilds, uh. So if you're in any of those markets and you need to to get another round in uh, make sure you sign up and, as you know, the national championship is right around the corner. Uh, registration closes on October 1st, so, um, it's open to everybody now that that has four rounds in. So so, please, if you're interested in going, make sure you sign up and and registered and pay, and uh, we'll get you registered and come, come down to Hilton head and have a really good time. So, with national championship week right, right, right around the corner. Uh, we'll try.

Speaker 2: 1:17:32

We're going to try and do a live podcast on October the 11th. Uh, wednesday, october the 11th. Now we do our annual tour directors awards dinner and we're going to try and do it right after the awards dinner, as a tour directors are bringing them around having dinner and, uh, socializing, and hopefully we'll be able to pick up a couple of uh tour directors and get some season ending thoughts and and their insight into how, how, how national championships going to go and maybe talk to some award winners. And then on Thursday, october 12th, uh check in for national championship is from four to eight at Arthur Hills and Palmetto Dunes and we're going to try and do it another live broadcast from there as well, and these will be one, uh, the the tours YouTube page and the tour Facebook page, and what I'll do is I'll put the links to both of those in the show notes.

Speaker 2: 1:18:26

So, um, you know, if, if, when you come to check in, please stop by and see us, and hopefully we'll be able to get that up and running. You know, what that really depends on is is is how busy we are, and, um, if, uh, I'm running around doing, doing all the other things getting ready for the tour and start on Friday. So again, hopefully we'll be able to do that on the 12th and hopefully the uh the 11th as well, and again, both of those will be uh live broadcast on the tours YouTube page and the tours Facebook page. So, in the meantime, if you have any questions, uh, please you know email either me at Tim and ATC at amateur golf tournet or Chris at El Paso at amateur golf tournet. Yeah, we want to thank you for for all your support throughout this, this first year of the podcast, and we look forward to seeing everybody in a couple of weeks in Hilton handed at national championship. Take care.